tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post6464751827441719059..comments2023-05-14T21:11:23.699-04:00Comments on CHEESEBURGER BROWN: Story Wallah: The Secret Mathematic - Chapter Twenty-TwoCheeseburger Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01384136287767500794noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-59029785599597444312008-06-14T00:18:00.000-04:002008-06-14T00:18:00.000-04:00I always enjoy the hell out of a Lallo chapter. He...I always enjoy the hell out of a Lallo chapter. He's been one of my favorite characters in the Burgerverse since The Long Man.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Brown, is there any chance there'll be another collection released before TSM is put out for purchase? I understand that you've been incredibly busy, and there's no rush; I'm just curious as to what your plans are on that.<BR/><BR/>Apologies all around if that questions been answered here before.<BR/><BR/>-TomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-26316792690171005522008-06-13T09:38:00.000-04:002008-06-13T09:38:00.000-04:00evan - Brilliant, especially the part about Lallo ...evan - Brilliant, especially the part about Lallo as seen through his eyes vs. someone else's.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08722639974320971726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-51460560214544958552008-06-11T17:39:00.000-04:002008-06-11T17:39:00.000-04:00Regarding the lack of a central character in TSM.....Regarding the lack of a central character in TSM... I think the diffuse nature of this narrative enhances the myth of the Mathematic's genesis, and reasserts the focus--at least, as I see it--of this whole, sprawling endeavor; it reminds us that the stories of this fictional universe are spiralling inwards at an increasingly rapid pace towards Event Zero. Once we have seen Event Zero, the focus, I imagine, will shift to the battle between Zoran and Cassandra, but until the Event, the Event is the story.<BR/><BR/>Treating each story as a jigsaw piece that fits nicely into place and brings us closer to the full picture would be a mistake. If you had written TSM as the originally planned four-part serial, you would have been resigned to using stories as mini-encyclopedia entries, explaining bits of information in humorous but self-contained chunks, when in actually characters and events spill from story to story, leaving ripples in their wake. Taken as a whole, TSM is a clunky Frankenstein construct, yeah, but I think to those who have read most/all of the preceding stories, it's sort of like walking through a hall of mirrors with a map. We see where we've been and what we've been waiting for side-by-side, and even though it can still be disorienting, it's enthralling and illuminating. I'm not sure any other narrative style could do this story justice, either, even if it has been the devil to produce and maintain.<BR/><BR/>Lallo's evolution interests me, because it seems that a lot of people disagree with the way he's handled in the third person, and I think it's because he's so affable in the first person that we forget how truly alien he is on the whole. He is disfigured and misshapen, impossibly ancient, and ultimately not even truly human--he's an actual Neanderthal. At best he is the dark reflection of the Executives; he is human-like, and perhaps even considers himself human in the important ways, but he's still alienated from the rest of humanity. I hate myself for making the trite comparison, but if the Executives are the superego, Lallo is the id. When we're hanging out with Lallo in his head we forget that he is brutal, mercurial, and painfully focused on his task because he has such an amusing internal monologue. <BR/><BR/>I think the distance between the readers and characters created by TSM, while a departure from most of the other stories, is not a problem. It's a fine line to tiptoe, but it's not the enemy. Each update is like a window into the world, and we're used to being in the room. Because we can't rely on the characters to carry us to the excitement as they usually do, we have to carry ourselves. We have to push our own way through the forest toward Event Zero, and my bet is that in the end, the extra mental effort to put ourself in the story is going to make the culmination that much grander. <BR/><BR/>I think that covers it. Sorry I wrote so much, and it's good to have you back.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-7645738739221633522008-06-11T00:15:00.000-04:002008-06-11T00:15:00.000-04:00Oh man, how I've been waiting for this. Life has ...Oh man, how I've been waiting for this. Life has been busy, and I just now got a moment to savor a brand new chapter, like Lallo enjoying a four-day-old cheeseburger from his sack of goodies. Funny how Dalia took off with that too...<BR/><BR/>Dang, I can't wait for the regeneration of Jeremiah. I'm particularly interested that he apparently keeps a hidden power reserve, in typical Jerry fashion. Makes you wonder what else we've Missed, if you know what I mean.<BR/><BR/>Big T, if you're unclear on the "ultimate destiny" thing, read <I>Tim, Destroyer of Worlds</I>, <I>Jesus and the Robot</I>, and <I>The Taste of Blue</I>. Actually, you can skip the middle one and still get the idea (kind of like Back to the Future, but the middle one isn't crap).<BR/><BR/>Lallo does seem a tad more human and approachable in this one. It's a good thing. Also, your cinematic third-person narrative through first-person perspective is a great read. Showing, not telling, just like the English teacher says.<BR/><BR/>Oh, one typo that I remember: "serviceman" should be "servicemen".<BR/><BR/>Since I managed to come late to the party, I have four fewer days to wait between installments -- woohoo!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-52723243085473074192008-06-10T08:26:00.000-04:002008-06-10T08:26:00.000-04:00Excellent chapter. Lallo is my favorite of your ch...Excellent chapter. Lallo is my favorite of your characters, and I've been waiting for him to finally make an extended appearance in this tale.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05571302657092617699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-17346191583984655162008-06-10T04:30:00.000-04:002008-06-10T04:30:00.000-04:00Another Great Chapter again. I like how you tie it...Another Great Chapter again. I like how you tie it into "Plight of the Transformer" I guess this means that Lallo eventually caught up with him and got the book back.alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12330912850864917649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-38013500506435062212008-06-09T21:12:00.000-04:002008-06-09T21:12:00.000-04:00Either Lallo is my favorite character, of I just e...Either Lallo is my favorite character, of I just enjoy reading your stories about him more than others. Can't say that there's a difference there, but it's a strong character that I enjoy watching.<BR/><BR/>I don't think I can give good feedback on the overall TSM story because I (like probably most people here) have read each and every prior work you put out.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you've got something up your sleeve for relaxing the tension with the destiny of Mr. Miss. Sometimes my faith wavered a bit... sorry... :)fooburgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00598732577922981025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-65404326703312404662008-06-09T20:32:00.000-04:002008-06-09T20:32:00.000-04:00Interesting that saintpeter's was the first commen...Interesting that saintpeter's was the first comment. I was coming on here to say that I love seeing established characters through yet another new character's eyes, and the different ways in which each new character approaches and interacts with him or her. Of course, for those who haven't been reading all along, nobody is an established character. That could make this writing approach it seem a little strange, I guess.<BR/><BR/>But I still dig it, yo.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure someone has said all this already, but I just had to comment on that before reading the others' no doubt insightful tidbits.<BR/><BR/>Great chapter, CBB.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08722639974320971726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-22048715491639426582008-06-09T14:37:00.000-04:002008-06-09T14:37:00.000-04:00CBB, I think while 1st person is great for emotion...CBB, I think while 1st person is great for emotional bond, the 3rd person perspective in this chapter is especially visual.<BR/><BR/>Lallo seems more like the Lallo I remembered from The Long Man - tough, determined; and less like the brutal, almost stupid Lallo from the other stories.Orick of Torontohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07151258407218493474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-31118673467387914082008-06-09T13:24:00.000-04:002008-06-09T13:24:00.000-04:00I meant to mention previously that I like seeing a...I meant to mention previously that I like seeing a local Alberta gal making an appearance in one of these stories. While I have nothing, personally, against the fine eastern folks who have populated the bulk of CBB's stories (having been born in Ontario myself), a slight touch of the west does not go amiss.<BR/><BR/>And Dalia's right: the winters are certainly enough to "freeze your tits off." But, on the other hand, when those that survive the cold are brought out on display during the heady summer months, we men-folk appreciate them all the more.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06946639624660520997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-37172568381235784442008-06-09T13:18:00.000-04:002008-06-09T13:18:00.000-04:00CBB,I enjoy the presentation of the story being to...CBB,<BR/><BR/>I enjoy the presentation of the story being told in third person, it lends it self very well to the serial format of your story telling. I enjoy guessing who's chapter it is going to be next.<BR/><BR/>The first thought I had was, "this is different some how, but I can not put my finger on it". The whole intro seemed a bit forced, like you were trying to hard. But as I kept reading it seemed to get back to what I was used to. It might be me, maybe the long break put me in a differnt frame of mind.<BR/><BR/>Mr.Miss's ultimate destiny?Big thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03728437300843445339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-61446603155583241672008-06-09T04:07:00.000-04:002008-06-09T04:07:00.000-04:00After all the waiting I happened to be busy when t...After all the waiting I happened to be busy when this arrived so I had to wait a little more.<BR/><BR/>Now that the waiting is done with I have to say that it was worth it, this is one of my favorite chapters.<BR/><BR/>As for the third person, I've been reading SoS a bit recently and it is and will continue to be one of my fav works of sci fi. However from there to here the improvement in your craft is quite noticeable and I think that this exercise in third person narrators has/is helping that.Tolomeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384928311920896699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-7510204237000698412008-06-08T11:27:00.000-04:002008-06-08T11:27:00.000-04:00Regarding third-person storytelling: it does requi...Regarding third-person storytelling: it does require a little more investment from the reader, I think, but on the whole it's working quite well. It keeps the story fresh - even after 22 chapters, the novel/tv-series/whatever doesn't feel like more of the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-41408201526058027112008-06-07T19:36:00.000-04:002008-06-07T19:36:00.000-04:00"Miniature punk-band buttons fly off in all direct..."Miniature punk-band buttons fly off in all directions, clinking as they bounce"<BR/>(i loved this detail!)<BR/><BR/>"What's your story, dude?" "It's long," he says shortly. (ha!)<BR/><BR/>"However, we don't erase anything from this stage. We only move forward."<BR/><BR/>this is one of the things i really appreciate about you. i like seeing your experiments and keeping them around feels trustworthy & transparent. thanks for that!gl.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03216590789836132321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-47028312631334218942008-06-07T03:45:00.000-04:002008-06-07T03:45:00.000-04:00Europe was. I am back now, with just over 800 pho...Europe was. I am back now, with just over 800 photografs, slightly over half of them done on my suuuuuuper-awesome film camera that I like better.<BR/><BR/>My first thought upon popping out of the parisian Metro system and seeing the neighborhood I was in? "This looks just like the French Quarter of New Orleans?" My second thought, which reoccurred A LOT was "stupid americans".<BR/><BR/>I think that Event Zero is almost becoming a character. Plot is an ongoing thing that is always there, just not necessarily being pushed forward. Event Zero, however, in this story, is something we the reader all know is coming but don't know quite when or what it is or will do. It's like reading Revelations, honestly - you know the end, but the story of how you get there is pretty interesting.<BR/><BR/>And Mr. BurgerBrown, Mr. Lucas can't hold a candle to your storytelling abilities after 1989. You totally pull this off.<BR/><BR/>TRHTeddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06429915965397673079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-70753103386054361372008-06-06T22:22:00.000-04:002008-06-06T22:22:00.000-04:00Quoth SaintPeter,...Particularly with this story, ...Quoth SaintPeter,<BR/><BR/><I>...Particularly with this story, most of the narrators are strangers who are incidental to the main players. While it tends to highlight the strangeness of the main players actions, you don't get to peek inside their heads.</I><BR/><BR/>And also,<BR/><BR/><I>It seems weird to me (in retrospect), to have almost an entire novel written that way.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that's certainly a fair comment.<BR/><BR/>The truth of the matter is, <I>The Secret Mathematic</I> is an awkward organism. Some of you might recall that when I announced the story in late 2007, I described it as a four-part quickie before we'd delve into a longer adventure. Obviously, the project evolved beyond the initial spec, and it has stretch marks.<BR/><BR/>The most disfiguring scar is the lack of a single, central protagonist.<BR/><BR/>My bad.<BR/><BR/>In an almost unforgivably Lucasian (prequel) fashion, <I>The Secret Mathematic</I> features a central character that is a plot, instead of a person. This is a seriously bad idea, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone writing anything. Ever.<BR/><BR/>However, we don't erase anything from <I>this</I> stage. We only move forward. Therefore, it has my obligation to run with it to the best of my kung fu.<BR/><BR/>There is an inherent distance created with this disconnected approach, and trying to bridge the gap has been one of my chief concerns while telling this puppy. It has, in my mind, become a lot like an episodic television show -- the distance is comparable, the plot telegraphed after setting breaks, the cinematic-style descriptive passages, cut like broadcast with audio cues and (practically) camera choreograhy.<BR/><BR/><I>The Secret Mathematic</I> isn't a novel, apparently. It's a television mini-series that's been written down in prose.<BR/><BR/>(It's probably shown on HBO, because of the swearing.)<BR/><BR/>So, from a literary point of view, I'd like to apologize for that. I can assure readers of a literary bend that I'm hearing your concerns, and they're feeding directly into my ongoing conception of <I>The Impossible Railroad</I> (working title), my next major project and one I'm terribly, terribly excited about.<BR/><BR/>From a pure storytelling point of view, however, I'm not altogether displeased with the way <I>The Secret Mathematic</I> is unfolding. I'm not sure I can think of a better format for exploring what I want to explore here, to get the readers where I want them to be when all is said and done.<BR/><BR/>I didn't want to write <I>Simon of Space</I> all over again, and maybe I wandered too far. But I recently re-read this current story to get my bearings again, and it's something that excites me. I'm desperate to know how Drago gets through it all, and I'm positively titillated to bring you in on Mr. Mississauga's ultimate destiny.<BR/><BR/>Simon mentioned,<BR/><BR/><I>This chapter, somehow, felt different to me...</I><BR/><BR/>And that's fair enough, too.<BR/><BR/>I took a vacation from <I>The Secret Mathematic</I> in every sense: when I was super-busy with my day job I didn't write a sentence. I didn't mull over the story during my commute. I consistently skipped the overture in my playlists.<BR/><BR/>(I went further away, far from the shores of productivity, to tarry in the pure mud and popcorn of Cheeseburger Brown MAXIMUM ESCAPISM MODE, to live in my castle by a non-existent sea, to let kilometers disappear beneath my car while I redesigned the portcullis and enhanced the anti-siege man-traps in the lee of the northern walls...you never know what calamity the god of imagination land may unleash, and fate favours the prepared.)<BR/><BR/>Also, while I said above that I re-read the story to date in order to get a refresher, I only did this <I>after</I> completing Chapter 22. I wanted to come at it out of the blue. I wanted a surprise attack on my brain. So I spun Chapter 22 out blind, and then dipped back into the other chapter to see if what I'd written fit in reasonably well and what, if any, possibilities were suggested by any unforeseen juxtapositions.<BR/><BR/>Another thing that's clear to me now is that Lallo is easy to write in the first person (as in <I>The Long Man</I>) but tricky as hell to get right in the third person (<I>Plight of the Transformer, The Secret Mathematic</I>).<BR/><BR/>On that topic, SaintPeter had said,<BR/><BR/><I>You don't tend to tell stories from a first person perspective.</I><BR/><BR/>The thing is, my dear saint, I used to write <I>everything</I> in the first person. I thought, perhaps, that I was abusing it, and some readers I respect suggested as much in their private correspondence with me. I was becoming a slave to a certain voice that was threatening to become very self-same from story to story, character to character.<BR/><BR/>Thus, I consciously made a break away from first person narrative. In its absence, here is what I have gathered:<BR/><BR/>* You, the readers, are more forgiving of plot holes or suspensions of disbelief when stories are told in the first person. You will tolerate a substantially weaker plot, composed of less tight prose, so long as the voice of the narrator appeals sufficiently.<BR/><BR/>* You are also more tolerant of jarring spatio-temporal shifts in a first person narrative, trusting in the narrator as your guide, even if you feel bewildered for a spell.<BR/><BR/>* Characters you especially like feel as if they're told in the first person, even if they're told in the third person, because of the bond the reader has with them. Thus, shifts to over third person perspective may seem more discomfiting than usual.<BR/><BR/>When I draw these points I'm thinking specifically of <I>The Long Man</I> and <I>Tim, Destroyer of Worlds</I> which were first person experiments tossed into the largely third person mix -- mostly because, in both cases, I was really crushed for time due to real life pressures, and decided to fall back on the old familiar narcotic of improvised plotting from a first person perspective, working out every turn on the fly.<BR/><BR/><I>The Secret Mathematic</I> has proven to be my greatest third person challenge. I figure if I can write my way out of this, I can write my way out of anything.<BR/><BR/>Simon said,<BR/><BR/><I>I like how you handled the association with 9/11.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks, Simon. I felt, and from comments gathered, that making the 9/11 attacks a plot point would be a very bad idea. It would cheapen the actual, real-life events, and disrespect the horror they engendered.<BR/><BR/>Teddy asked,<BR/><BR/><I>How did the event go over, CBB? No napkin fires or explosive defoldings?</I><BR/><BR/>Everything proceeded according to my design.<BR/><BR/>How's Europe, Teddy?<BR/><BR/>Bilhelm96 said,<BR/><BR/><I>How fortuitus that I decided to re-read "The Long Man" this morning.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed! Now: are you ready to have its mysteries explained? I tell you I'm positively giddy about what's to come.<BR/><BR/>Mandrill mentioned,<BR/><BR/><I>Good to see Lallo again, and Dalia's name rings a bell or two, I'll be re-reading some of your past work to try and find out where the belfry is.</I><BR/><BR/>She's referenced in <I>Bad Traffic</I>, cameos in <I>Night Flight Mike</I>, and features in <I>Victor's Mom's Car</I>.<BR/><BR/>Fooburger also said,<BR/><BR/><I>clay golems are like 11 hit dice creatures or something, aren't they? once he's up, he's going to be a real troublemaker, particularly with that special attack of 'TSM'.</I><BR/><BR/>Baby, you don't yet know the half of it.<BR/><BR/>Love,<BR/>Cheeseburger BrownCheeseburger Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01384136287767500794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-42457370944148248122008-06-06T19:09:00.000-04:002008-06-06T19:09:00.000-04:00Excellent installment.I think the backpack-over-th...Excellent installment.<BR/>I think the backpack-over-the-head sentence was confusing to me as well.<BR/><BR/>clay golems are like 11 hit dice creatures or something, aren't they? once he's up, he's going to be a real troublemaker, particularly with that special attack of 'TSM'.<BR/><BR/>oh yeah.. used to be a nerd..fooburgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00598732577922981025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-68888261876809874182008-06-06T18:45:00.000-04:002008-06-06T18:45:00.000-04:00Good to have you back Mr. Brown. I trust everythin...Good to have you back Mr. Brown. I trust everything went off as it should at 'the event', or as close to it as such complex undertakings allow.<BR/><BR/>Good to see Lallo again, and Dalia's name rings a bell or two, I'll be re-reading some of your past work to try and find out where the belfry is.<BR/><BR/>I like your angle on 9/11, too often that day is used as a pivotal event in fiction written since then. The fact that it is only a sideshow to the main event is refreshing.Mandrillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03968818764660945524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-72641772378342393662008-06-06T17:56:00.000-04:002008-06-06T17:56:00.000-04:00How fortuitus that I decided to re-read "The Long ...How fortuitus that I decided to re-read "The Long Man" this morning. Knowing what we do of Lallo, I suspect it won't be long before he comes chasing after the girl to get his "sack."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-69968323487522105202008-06-06T17:47:00.000-04:002008-06-06T17:47:00.000-04:00I wonder if maybe Event Zero is the first pooling ...I wonder if maybe Event Zero is the first pooling of memories for the Executives, when the temporal first Jeremiah pools with the causal first Jeremiah? It's definitely something huge, The Math had actually been used before Zoran was in Canada working to develop it further (Three Face Flip).<BR/><BR/>How did the event go over, CBB? No napkin fires or explosive defoldings?<BR/><BR/>TRHTeddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06429915965397673079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-69125501690489911412008-06-06T16:42:00.000-04:002008-06-06T16:42:00.000-04:00Such a welcome addition to an otherwise mundane Fr...Such a welcome addition to an otherwise mundane Friday afternoon. And I do so love our favourite long man.<BR/><BR/>This chapter, somehow, felt different to me. I don't think I can quite place my finger on it. The helicopter's description as an insect; Lallo seeming more emotional than he usually does; perhaps Dalia getting on with the freakish man quicker than I would expect... I think maybe it felt a little rushed or condensed, even though it was an exceptionally long chapter. Just a vibe.<BR/><BR/>I like how you handled the association with 9/11. As in, you didn't take us there directly, we only know of the aftermath, both in terms of the actual attack and these, seemingly secondary, effects.<BR/><BR/>Now that Jeremiah's out of the bag, I don't think it can be too long before we see things start to spiral toward Event Zero. Is it actually going to involve Drago AND the time traveling Executive? That would be trippy. And especially cool for Dr. Zoran to see a future iteration of his making.<BR/><BR/>Maybe.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06946639624660520997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16435271.post-85853378220658863892008-06-06T16:06:00.000-04:002008-06-06T16:06:00.000-04:00Amazing chapter! Very exciting! I knew it was La...Amazing chapter! Very exciting! I knew it was Lallo as soon as he put his hand over her mouth.<BR/><BR/>I did notice something - You don't tend to tell stories from a first person perspective. Particularly with this story, most of the narrators are strangers who are incidental to the main players. While it tends to highlight the strangeness of the main players actions, you don't get to peek inside their heads. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it does strike me as odd. The "Stranger observing" method is typically only used at the introduction to a story, or in certain parts, to highlight some not normally internally visible trait. It seems weird to me (in retrospect), to have almost an entire novel written that way.<BR/><BR/>Was that a conscious choice? Or do you just end up writing that way?<BR/><BR/>Nitpick:<BR/><I>She puts her knapsack over her head as she passes through a stream of dripping water</I><BR/><BR/>What I envisioned was her actually pulling the knapsack over her head - ie: putting her head inside it. It wasn't until I read the next bit that I got it. I suggest "She <I>holds</I> her knapsack over her head. . ."SaintPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02064605142705446251noreply@blogger.com